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Vox Day - Mailvox; the right place

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Mailvox: the right place


I figured you could help a “former” pussy liberal who finally woke up... So I’d like to buy my first gun before the Peter (SHTF) hits the fan. I have no interest in blowing someone’s head off with a .40 magnum. I’m thinking a 9mm since that is standard issue around the world and the bullets would be cheap for practice.

Anything you’d recommend? I’m leaning towards a sub-compact because I like the element of surprise. I’m looking at this…

I will be frowned upon by people around me if I at least don’t make sure it has a safety. Otherwise I would just go with a sub-compact Glock. \\}}}


I figured this might be of some small interest to the regulars here, plus that bit about the big caliber was just too good not to share. But give him credit for being willing to take responsibility for himself and be sure to explain the reasoning behind your recommendation. Comments (143)

Nate   11/14/08 2:32 PM

***sigh***

First and foremost... .40 is about to remove anyone's head.. and there is no such thing as a .40 magnum.

A 9mm is not a powerful enough weapon to reliably stop a full grown adult male.

First gun...

Wheel gun in .357 mag. practice with .38 wad cutters. cheap... low recoil. I strongly recommend a taurus total titium. Pay attention to the ones with the ribbed grips. Ribbed for your pleasure and hers. Trust me.

When you're comfy and ready to move to a semi... get it in .40.

Magister Aurelius   11/14/08 2:34 PM

Heck, a good steady practiced shot doesn't need a Belchfire Magnum to kill. Even a hit from a .32 ACP or even a .25 ACP in the vitals will kill. The .40+ calibers give you additional knockdown power which is more of a margin for error where you are surprised, stressed and may not be capable of the accuracy demanded by smaller calibers. My personal home defense gun is a Taurus "Judge" revolver with a 4" barrel. 5 rounds of No6 birdshot at that range is more than enough to knockdown and kill an intruder without overpenetration wasting a neighbor. My personal concealed weapon is an Astra Model 200 in .25ACP. But then again, I have smaller hands and my build is more difficult to conceal larger caliber weapons.

| Jamie-R |   | 11/14/08 2:40 PM | {{{"

I figured you could help a “former” pussy liberal who finally woke up... }}}



"Why can't you let go now, do you really want to run your life away?"

-- James ' D-Train' Williams

"I've been thinking, that you don't want to fall, you don't want to fall from me. I've been thinking that you don't want the world, you don't want the world to *see*, just like, runner!"

-- James ' D-Train' Williams

"Don't you know don't you know, you're a runner, RUNNER! Ooooh yeahah. Tell me tell me where you're going where you're going!"

-- James ' D-Train' Williams



I personally can't get enough of Soul Train when that sort of Soul rocks up. |

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EN   11/14/08 2:42 PM
Nice choice in the XD. I just bought one of these in .40 Cal for my son's girl friend. The problem is we can't get it. I've paid for it but there are none available. I'd go with a .45 ACP in a five inch barrel if I could, but that's just me. She's got small hands and was looking for something small. I love my XDs but find the S&W M&P fits smaller hands better. And good for you in taking charge of your own protection.
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Difranco   11/14/08 2:43 PM
The Springfield Armory XD Pistols are great pistols, I'd go with the .40S&W caliber over 9mm. Lifetime warranty, very reliable and very safe. Also you can get a conversion barrel for 9mm for target practice use.

I've started several people with their first gun with an XD and all have loved their pistol and gone on to be well disciplined shooters.
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rob-h   11/14/08 2:46 PM
I second the recommendation for a .357 revolver. Inexpensive to practice with the .38sp loads, and you can stop anybody with the full power load.
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EN   11/14/08 2:48 PM
And under no circumstances should you listen to Jaime. His cricket bat is only good for self sodomizing Aussies.
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John-GT   11/14/08 2:49 PM
There's also the .38 S&W with recessed hammer and short barrel for concealed carry. It'll shoot the Special-P round which packs enough of a punch, and the recessed hammer won't snag on something as you pull it out. Bonus is it's dual action revolver, and if you get a misfire you just pull the trigger again.
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trk   11/14/08 2:52 PM
I'll be getting a revolver soon(either Ruger GP-100 4in or the Taurus that Nate likes), then my follow up purchase will be the Springfield XD-M .40.
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Jamie-R   11/14/08 2:53 PM

| EN: 11/14/08 2:48 PM
{{{"

And under no circumstances should you listen to Jaime. His cricket bat is only good for self sodomizing Aussies.}}}



Don't you don't you know you're just a runner!

Oh yeah (grinding voice) heh |

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something_feral   11/14/08 2:56 PM
Get a rifle in addition to a side-arm... A FAL manufactured from DS Arms or M1A from Springfield Armory (or LRB Arms if you can afford it), in my opinion.
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Rekrapt   11/14/08 2:58 PM
Rocket-propelled grenade launcher FTW!
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Ian.yclept   11/14/08 3:09 PM

| something_feral: 11/14/08 2:56 PM
{{{"

Get a rifle in addition to a side-arm... A FAL manufactured from DS Arms or M1A from Springfield Armory (or LRB Arms if you can afford it), in my opinion.}}}



I was just going to say that. The 2nd Amendment is/was an authorization to keep an armed militia - war guns, not self-defense guns. No militia would be worth a whole lot shooting just government-licensed hand-guns. |

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Mutly   11/14/08 3:11 PM
Handguns are nice for concealed carry, but maybe not so good for SHTF scenarios. I personally favor the 44mag wheels over 357, but rounds are expensive (I reload)(I also live in bear country). My wife is very handy with CZ97 9mm. For defense though you need to make sure you have proper ammunition. Something high speed with expandable hollow points. Hydrashocs are my favorite right now.

For home defense I think a pump shotgun is also a good alternative. No matter what the option though, practice is the most important part. Practice loading, unloading, drawing, etc while blindfolded too after you get the hang of it. Typically break ins happen at night.
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Kentucky Packrat   11/14/08 3:11 PM
First rule: NEVER bring a pistol to a gunfight. Purchase a new Winchester 1300 or a used Mossberg or Remmington 870 with an 18" barrel and load it with double-aught buckshot and keep it at home. If you can't handle 12 gauge for physical reason, buy the 20 gauge. If you live in an apartment, you might need to switch down to #2 buckshot to keep from killing your neighbors...

There are valid reasons for picking a 9mm. I used tvi910+s in the computer labs on campus during college, and ruined my wrists. Shooting a .45 (especially a small one) or a .40 is just no fun, and if it's not fun you won't practice enough. I love the Beretta 92FS Milady bought me as a wedding present (I bought a ring, making it a perfect Eastern Kentucky wedding: a ring and a gun... ;) ), but it has that annoying tendency of shooting a bit up and to the left that 92FSes of that era exhibited. I'll have to get that fixed eventually

The number 2 rule of guns are "they MUST go bang when and only when you want them to do so". Don't buy cheap, and don't buy used unless you trust the seller.

The number 3 rule is "it must fit your hand". Put the pistol in your hand, and extend your trigger finger out straight. If it's not perfectly parallel to the barrel (i.e. both pointing at the same place), then the pistol is wrong for you, and you will have to fight it to shoot right. This was one very good thing about revolvers: you could change grips.
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Nate   11/14/08 3:17 PM
Kentucky Packrat = Pussy.

A 1911 in .45 is the smoothest shooting weapon there is. Felt recoil is practically nill.

Anyone that buys a 9mm because of recoil should be wearing a skirt. And by skirt.. I don't mean kilt.

Also...

38 special = 9mm and should be loathed in the same manner.
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MLL   11/14/08 3:21 PM
If you like the XD, either 9 or 40, go with that.

I'm a 9mm Glock 19 guy, because I like the fit and feel of it, and because I'm either freakishly lucky with it, or it's a magic +4 Glock of Targetslaying. So now pretty much everyone in my clan has at least one.

I've heard the talk about 9mm not being enough manstopper.
I like Magsafe ammunition as the first couple rounds in the chamber and magazine for that reason.
2050 feet per second out of a comfortable concealable handgun is pretty spiffy.

Gunsensei Marty Hayes of the Firearms Academy of Seattle says "Velocity won the caliber war."
2050 fps is good enough for me.

I get that sending a .45 caliber ashtray down range gives a man a warm feeling.
I got a Glock 30 too, for when that need strikes.
But the 19 is comfortable, concealable, and as I mentioned, mine at least is pretty accurate. I can shoot skeet with it. (and hit them).

9mm is cheaper than other calibers, but it really isn't cheap anymore, especially not after last week.
Stock up, In the last 10 years, I haven't seen the price of ammo go DOWN more than 10%.
You might consider buying a fistful of spare mags also, They quadrupled in price during the Clinton years.
The next ban won't have a sunset clause. Think of mags like consumables. A store of mags now, turns your handgun into an heirloom.

The best handgun for you is the one you have WITH you, that means choosing one that is comfortable and concealable. Also being able to hit with it helps.

I've tried the XD9 and absolutely loved it. Put night sights on it, and get a good holster.
It has all those tricky mechanical safetys that those frowny people around you like so much.

Being a Glock guy, I just smile and nod. The only real safety is between your ears. (One hopes).

Follow the rules.
1. Treat all guns as if they were loaded, at all times.
2. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are aligned and you're ready to fire.
3. Know what the backstop for your target is, and what's behind it.
4. Never point it at anything you do not have the right to destroy.

I salute you for thinking about it.

I'll leave you with this thought I picked up on the internet somewhere:

Consider being in a situation that is so fouled up, you need a firearm to solve it.
Now consider being in that situation, and not having yours with you.

Find one that works for you, practice with it and carry it.
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Jamie-R   11/14/08 3:21 PM

| Nate: 11/14/08 3:17 PM
{{{"

Anyone that buys a 9mm because of recoil should be wearing a skirt. And by skirt.. I don't mean kilt.}}}



Well good wouldn't want Josh to rock up now would we. |

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mjb   11/14/08 3:22 PM
My wife has this fear of guns, so sadly, none for me. I'll enjoy em when visiting my father's house. We have 2 young children, and to be honest, I have no experience where young children are concerned (I remember my dad kicking my ass when I was about 7 because I spread his gun oil all over his bedroom wall)

Sure common sense takes priority, but some argue differing points:

1. Let your kids know about them early and teach them right.
2. Don't let your kids know about them until they are older and then teach them right.
3. Lock em.
4. Don't lock em, but store them in a safe, but easily accessible area for an adult.

So, for those who know with small children, I'd appreciate your input.
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Nate   11/14/08 3:24 PM
on semi-autos...

Springfield XD's are awesome weapons. Also consider Taurus 24-7, and anything that says CZ on it... unless its a 9mm.

9mm is not a usefull caliber.

The object is to stop an attacker.

A center mass shot from a 9mm simply won't do it as often as you would like, unless you're using something like glaser saftey slugs. a 9mm may kill.. but killing and stopping are not the same thing.

A man can do plenty of damage before he dies of internal bleeding tomarrow.
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Mr. Green Man   11/14/08 3:29 PM
Given it's gun number one -- get the best all-around gun in existence that doesn't assume you're previous experience but holds up great year-on-year: a S&W medium- to large-frame revolver in .38Special/357Magnum. The 6XX models are outstanding.

A revolver is easier to operate at a low skill level than a pistol, and it delivers the same sort of punch. There isn't the joy of learning the two-handed dance of holding a pistol action open and trying to fish out a jammed round without fearing the spring slamming shut on your finger and having to exercise your NRA mutilation insurance. The Smith and Wesson sights are great for what you need -- short range accuracy.

The Smith's are point-and-click, and we can be happy buying them since they're no longer owned by those damn Brits who wanted to cave to the Clintonistas on "hand recognition" technology.

A shotgun's nice, too, and the Persuader and the 870 are solid, but that should be gun number two -- which also should be bought before the new regime.
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ZT   11/14/08 3:30 PM

| Difranco: 11/14/08 2:43 PM
{{{"

The Springfield Armory XD Pistols are great pistols, I'd go with the .40S&W caliber over 9mm. Lifetime warranty, very reliable and very safe. Also you can get a conversion barrel for 9mm for target practice use.

I've started several people with their first gun with an XD and all have loved their pistol and gone on to be well disciplined shooters.}}}



I keep looking at these. Anyone have preference on the Metal vs. Plastic body frame? |

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Nate   11/14/08 3:30 PM
MJB
Weapons should be stored in a safe that can be accessed very quickly. Your primary defense weapons should be loaded.

On kids... scare the crap out of them when they are very young... and repeat the lesson every so often.

I'll tell you how I did it...

I took a watermellon... and showed it to my son.. who was 3. I asked him to kick it. He did. I asked him to hit it. He did. I gave him a stick.. and told him to hit it. He did.

He concluded that watermellons were very strong... and very tough. Much tougher than himself.

Then...

I let him watch... as I walked the watermellon 25 yards down range.

Then I drew my steyr... and the watermellon exploded in fantastic and glorious fashion.

He asked to go home.

A year later.. when his younger brother attempted to touch a weapon... he stopped him... sat him down... and lectured him on firearm saftey.

If you've never seen a 4 year old lecture a 2 year old on guns... you really haven't lived.
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Papapete   11/14/08 3:30 PM
The first thing you should do is go to a shooting range, preferably with a buddy who already owns several of the pistols you want to try out. If you don't know anyone like that then rent the pistols at the range and shoot them. If you explain to the range owner what you are doing, he will frequently be able to give you knowledgeable advice. Narrow the field of possible choices down and shoot them some more. Then make your choice.

If you've never handled guns before, a DA revolver is both better and worse. Better, because there is less change of a negligent discharge. Worse, because it takes considerably more practice to learn to shoot with reliable accuracy due to the heavy DA trigger pull and long travel. It is easier to learn to handle safely under pressure, however hitting your target in crisis situations is difficult. Learning to hit the target under pressure requires more than standing slow-fire practice at the range. I personally would stay away from the titanium frame snubby .357s. Recoil and muzzle blast are more than many people can shoot regularly without developing a flinch.

SA autos like 1911-style .45 ACPs are perhaps the easiest to learn to shoot, but require more practice to use safely in pressure situations since the trigger breaks a relatively light pressure and little travel. You have to drill on the manual of arms until it is reflex and be an absolute fanatic about safety, especially keeping the booger-hook off the bang switch until ready. Safe use has to be drilled in until it becomes bone-deep reflex.

The Glock or XD-style autos are a good compromise. Trigger pull is heavier and longer than a 1911, but much lighter than a DA revolver.

Don't worry about which caliber is "enough gun". If you like the 9mm, then you will shoot it. If you like the .40, great. My wife doesn't like the recoil from a .40 but loves her .45 ACP. The primary concern for you should be "what gun in what caliber will I enjoy shooting?" because you will need to shoot it regularly to develop your skills. There are lots of resources out there to help you to become a competent shooter, but the most important thing you can do is PRACTICE.
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Nate   11/14/08 3:31 PM
Men dont carry Glocks.
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Huckleberry   11/14/08 3:33 PM
This boy needs to start off with something easy and reliable.
I second the .357 wheel gun.
Someone with absolutely no gunhandling experience shouldn't start right away with a semi-auto.
And whoever suggested he get a Mossberg I think is just trying to get the poor schlub to hurt himself.
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Athor Pel   11/14/08 3:35 PM
I second Nate's and rob-h's revolver recommendations. They go bang everytime, they ignore neglect better than semi-autos. Easier to clean, easier to maintain, fewer things to futz with, just point it and pull the trigger.

Taurus, S&W, Ruger, even Charter Arms, they all make great carry revolvers. In stainless, titanium, blued, whatever. You'll be wanting a 3 inch or shorter barrel. Hammerless or bobbed hammer to avoid snagging on clothing. You want double action only, until you fully understand all the different operating mechanisms and can make a truly informed decision.

If you are truly going to be carrying it then the smallest piece you can get with the biggest caliber is what you will be looking for. Carry pistols are a lot like cameras in that a small camera you have with you is better than a big one you leave at home.

It would also be a very good idea to get some training. The folks at Gunsite or Front Sight provide top notch training to new pistol users. These folks will teach you what you need to know to be proficient and safe. Front Sight even has an XD promotion going on right now. At least I hope it's still going on.

To paraphrase Clint Smith, 'A pistol is not thunder death.' A pistol bullet is a little piece of metal that makes a small hole in what it hits. The amount of recoil energy being pushed into your palm is rougly equivalent to the energy propelling the bullet. The bullet is just impacting on a smaller area than the pistol grip against your hand. Even the high energy pistol calibers don't knock people down from their energy alone. Only well aimed/placed pistol bullets incapacitate or kill instantly.

Bottom line:
If you're serious about this then you need to think real hard about whether you are ready to take a life or not. Some people can, some people can't. It's just the way it is. You need to find out about yourself and be as honest about yourself as you can possibly be.
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Nate   11/14/08 3:36 PM
I agree with Papapete on DA wheelguns. I suggest getting one with a hammer. That way you can practice with a single action pull.

I disagree with him on the recoil of little wheelguns. I have a taurus titanium .357 and... because of the excellent grips.. I can shoot it without a problem with full loads. With .38 wadcutters it may as well be a bb gun.
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ZT   11/14/08 3:37 PM

| Nate: 11/14/08 3:24 PM
{{{"

A man can do plenty of damage before he dies of internal bleeding tomarrow.}}}



FBI studies (I still wish I could get a hold the wound and penetration book that has been on my wish list for some time. sigh...) A man has at least 15 seconds that their body can keep moving even if the heart is utterly destroyed. This is why juiced up druggies still kill cops even after they are filled with several dozen rounds of 9 mm.

And if you think 15 seconds isn't much time then you have never been in a fight. |

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mjb   11/14/08 3:37 PM
Nate,

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll drag my wife to the shooting range back home to maybe help her get over her fear. Is a 12 gauge too big for starters? haha (she's 115 lbs soaking wet).
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Mr. Green Man   11/14/08 3:37 PM
If we just added some pictures of women's asses to this thread, it's Friday anyways...
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Ran   11/14/08 3:40 PM
http://www.safetybullet.com/
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Nate   11/14/08 3:44 PM
"I think I'll drag my wife to the shooting range back home to maybe help her get over her fear. "

MJB,
I've found women are scared because they have an idea of their crazy husband not taking a weapon seriously.

My advice on the wife... bring a gun safe home and set it up in your house. Let her understand what its for and get used to the fact that its there. That goes a long way to easing their fears, when they understand that you are taking it that seriously.

Also... take the time to explain gun saftey. Demonstrate the ritual and rule of it.

That goes a long way.
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Nate   11/14/08 3:48 PM
"A man has at least 15 seconds that their body can keep moving even if the heart is utterly destroyed. "

That's a great point. It brings to mind something I've been meaning to talk about... that is... bringing down a big man that's high on crack with a handgun that's not a .44 casull.

How do you do it?

I'll give you the best tactic I know... beyond put head shots... which are plenty good if you're good enough to make them. Which thankfully I am... but more info is better... so practice this tactic.

As the man approaches you side step him to your left and shoot down into his right hip.

This shatters the hip bone and instantly brings the man down. Be advised though... he's going down and going down hard... TOWARDS YOU. If you don't move.. he will fall on you and likely blow out your knee.

That happened to a buddy of mine who still walks with a limp.

Of couse.. walking with a limp is better than being torn limb from limb by a silver back gorillia hyped up on PCP.
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Knarf   11/14/08 3:48 PM
I can't believe you're falling for this. This is a "former" with "former" in quotes self-confessed pussy liberal who wants to buy a gun. The last thing we need is more liberals with guns. You're giving effective armament advice to a future member of the Civilian National Security Force.
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EN   11/14/08 3:49 PM

| Nate: 11/14/08 3:17 PM
{{{"

A 1911 in .45 is the smoothest shooting weapon there is. Felt recoil is practically nill.}}}



I admit to carrying an old Colt Commander (I coulda bought three XDs for what I've put into it). However, too many 1911s have a bad habit of going "CLICK" and I'm not talking cheap guns here. I've poured money into my 1911s and not a one stays fixed. Both of my sons would rather have an old S&W model 19 in .38 then trust any of the present 1911s (although, they can hardly wait for my demise so they can fight over my old Commander). If I was going to buy a gun and shoot it out of the box I'd get an XD. And there's other good ones out there that don't cost an arm and a testicle. If someone can honestly recommend a 1911 that they own and trust then fine. Other wise go with something else. |

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Nate   11/14/08 3:49 PM
ya know how much off topic commenting Vox could prevent if he put a post like this up every couple days?
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Nate   11/14/08 3:50 PM
"However, too many 1911s have a bad habit of going "CLICK" and I'm not talking cheap guns here."

You're going to hell.
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EN   11/14/08 3:53 PM

| Nate: 11/14/08 3:48 PM
{{{"

As the man approaches you side step him to your left and shoot down into his right hip.}}}



I can make head shots but need time and space to make them. I practice something similar quite a lot. I cover my left ear with my left hand and keep the gun close to my body and work the hell out of the abdomen... and don't blade and shoot yourself in the elbow. |

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Knarf   11/14/08 3:56 PM

| mjb: 11/14/08 3:37 PM
{{{"

Is a 12 gauge too big for starters?}}}



No, provided the gun isn't too heavy for her arm strength, it has a nice thick recoil pad, and you exercise some sense about the load you shoot. Winchester makes a really nice AA "Low Recoil, Low Noise" trap load that's great for beginners. I've started quite a few novice trapshooters in your wife's weight class off with it.

If they can lift the 12 gauge, by all means, use it. The shell has about half again as much shot as a 20 gauge, and that pattern density really improves their odds of hitting the clay. Once they really dust a bird, of course, you've got 'em hooked. |

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EN   11/14/08 3:57 PM
And that's dangerous if you're not clear on the concept so don't do it unless you really understand what i'm talking about... Just had a flash of someone taking my advice and blowing their elbow off.
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EN   11/14/08 3:58 PM

| Nate: 11/14/08 3:50 PM
{{{"

You're going to hell.}}}



I was likely headin' there long before that. |

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Jamie-R   11/14/08 3:59 PM
Nate rocks
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Athor Pel   11/14/08 4:02 PM
"Nate 11/14/08 3:50 PM
"However, too many 1911s have a bad habit of going "CLICK" and I'm not talking cheap guns here."

You're going to hell."




And you carry a Steyer M40.


Oh, I almost forgot. Have you finished building the 1911 yet?
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Nate   11/14/08 4:04 PM
I carry two Steyr M40s.

and the 1911s are still being fitted.

Dammit.
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BrianTheGreat   11/14/08 4:06 PM
All my kids learned early (6-7) about the basics. They were schooled in responsibility in all areas of the life as well as use of firearms. IMHO, children who have never been taught about firearms are dangerous if they ever encounter one. When my children were too young to handle a firearm on their own, I used a gun safe with speed entry (such as a push button combination) a big drawback is that any I have ever seen require electricity for speed entry or else you have to resort to a key.
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Jamie-R   11/14/08 4:07 PM
Gonna get right down!

But tell me why oh why! Oh why!

Nate!

You know, Josh, is absent, would have been a lot of fun if he was here, this is what's called 'opportunity cost'.
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Bug   11/14/08 4:09 PM
Starting with Springfield Armory XD in .40 S&W seems prudent. He's smart to stick with common calibers.
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J. J.   11/14/08 4:10 PM

| Nate: 11/14/08 3:31 PM
{{{"

Men dont carry Glocks.}}}



Even black Tupperware is still Tupperware. |

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Giraffe   11/14/08 4:32 PM
I hate being late to gun threads.

To sum up the excellent advice already given:

In an auto, .40 or .45 caliber. 9mm if you are a woman.

note, the 10 mm is more than most can handle, and actually could be considered a ".40 magnum".

In a revolver, .357 mag. Bonus, You can use .38 spcl. for practice. 44 mag is not practical for self defense, to big, heavy and recoil is harsh.
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Jim,   11/14/08 4:32 PM
My first pistol was a Bersa Thunder .380 acp.

Advantages--cheap (<$200), very accurate for a small gun, and very easy to conceal, even in warm climates like down here in Fla where all I wear is shorts an a t-shirt 8 months out of the year. Easy to maintain, ammo price is reasonable. Did I say it is very accurate?

Disadvantages-- easy to outgrow it once you are comfortable handling a pistol, so the desire to upgrade to something bigger comes on rather quickly, but still, easy gun to conceal, easy to learn on and it's accuracy balances the lack of power for a beginner's needs. Capacity is only 7+1, but additional mags are only $15.
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SharpsKC   11/14/08 4:35 PM
9mm can and does kill people dead dead dead. .40 and .45 also kills people. Heck .22LR kills people all the time. Using even basic 115gr hollowpoints only your ME will know for sure. Life isn't dnd real people don't have many hps to spare.


If you love the xd and it fits your hand. Get it and don't look back.
Buy lots of ammo.
Buy extra magazines.
Ask questions.
Listen to the answers.
Be friendly. Firing lines if you have not noticed are very courteous places. :)
If a CCL is an option in your state get one.
Practice, Practice, Practice
Keep your weapon clean
Educate your family
Have fun.
Keep Smiling
When in doubt empty the magazine. (Make it sound like you panic'd)

I love my cz75 but realize it wouldn't be the carry gun of choice for most. :)

If you are attracting attention from the kind of people that will walk through a wall of lead to kill you. I recommend reviewing your life choices, hiring competent private security, or forget about handguns altogether and carry around a 12ga like the worlds largest epi-pen.
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RC   11/14/08 4:36 PM
In addition to the above, notes to the liberal:

1) A .357 magnum is a hot load but all .357 guns can shoot .38 special loads which are much lighter. You can practice with the light loads and then load the mags for self defense, shooting enough hot loads to get a feel for the gun in that circumstance. That's one advantage of this caliber although I like most of the others that are mentioned too. I personally prefer the pistols because they have more firepower (ie. hold more bullets.) A revolver usually holds six (five for the larger calibers) where a pistol can hold ten to sixteen, at least the ones I own.

2) "Wheel gun" is a revolver.

3) I really like and recommend the tritium night sites for a defense weapon. They make lasers too but they have the potential to ID you too.

4) Don't buy a gun with a very short barrel. I've seen some tiny guns that you could shoot off your own finger.

5) I personally like a shotgun for home defense, especially for a novice. They are easier to land.

Whatever you do, if it's a home defense weapon, analyze your home. Think about it. Where are the safe zones? Is there a stairway where you can set up and wait for the perp? Make certain to think about where people are sleeping when you consider where the confrontation might take place. For example, I have a brick chimney for cover and the perp has to come up the stairwell to do any harm to my family. DO NOT WARN! If you're faced with a bad guy in the house, you give away too much advantage if you warn. Light 'em up.
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EN   11/14/08 4:41 PM
I recently saw police cadets being trained. They were learning to shoot Glock 9mm. The trainer said something interesting about stopping power. "If you shoot, shootem' until they comply". I'd use a 9mm although I presently don't own one.
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EN   11/14/08 4:42 PM

| SharpsKC: 11/14/08 4:35 PM
{{{"




If you love the xd and it fits your hand. Get it and don't look back.
Buy lots of ammo.
Buy extra magazines.
Ask questions.
Listen to the answers.
Be friendly. Firing lines if you have not noticed are very courteous places. :)
If a CCL is an option in your state get one.
Practice, Practice, Practice
Keep your weapon clean
Educate your family
Have fun.
Keep Smiling
When in doubt empty the magazine. (Make it sound like you panic'd)}}}



Great advice Sharps. |

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PaulLovesJamie   11/14/08 4:44 PM
good advice so far. I'll add this: Think about what will be confiscated first by the coming administration: plastic semi-auto concealable. So I have 4 points of advice
1) Go to a range and rent/shoot the gun you want to buy - be certain it fits your hand!!!
2) buy the springfield, its a nice gun.
3) Also buy a revolver
4) get a concealed carry permit.

I figure that with a concealed carry plus a revolver I have a better chance of keeping it.
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Giraffe   11/14/08 4:45 PM

| Magister Aurelius: 11/14/08 2:34 PM
{{{"

Heck, a good steady practiced shot doesn't need a Belchfire Magnum to kill. Even a hit from a .32 ACP or even a .25 ACP in the vitals will kill. ...........}}}




To paraphrase Jeff Cooper:

"If you shoot someone with a .25 ACP, he's likely to be pretty pissed off if he finds out about it." |

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SgtGideonsDad   11/14/08 4:45 PM
My personal carry gun is a Taurus titanium .357 snub nosed 5 shot revolver, hides
very well.
When I got my concealed carry license I had to take a 12 hr required course (Ohio)
they teach you quite a bit on handling and shooting firearms in the time given and you
have to pass the shooting test which nobody ever fails.
The company, Insight Firearms, also offered a 12 hr Home defense pistol course, and it was well
worth the time and money.
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Papapete   11/14/08 4:48 PM
"I disagree with him on the recoil of little wheelguns. I have a taurus titanium .357 and... because of the excellent grips.. I can shoot it without a problem with full loads. With .38 wadcutters it may as well be a bb gun."

The problem frequently is perceived recoil. With snubbies shooting .357 mags the muzzle blast can be startlling to someone not used to it. Also people perceive recoil differently. My wife doesn't like shooting 9mm or .40 cal because the recoil impulse is quicker. She loves shooting .45 ACP because although total recoil is greater, the recoil feels like a "push" rather than a "punch". She has an autoimmune disease that affects her tendons and is sensitive to the quicker "sharper" recoil impulse.

It all comes down to what the individual shooter is comfortable with at that time. As he gains greater experience his choices might change. The important thing is for him to shoot enough to gain that experience.

"I suggest getting one with a hammer. That way you can practice with a single action pull."

The problem with that is that in a combat situation he likely won't be shooting the revolver in SA, or at least not after the first shot. All subsequent rounds will be DA, and unless they're at halitosis range, will most likely miss. Shooting a revolver accurately under stress is MUCH harder than an auto and requires much more practice.
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GeorgeS   11/14/08 5:04 PM
Pappa Pete's advice IMHO is the best. Shoot allot of different weapons and see which one has the best feel.

Nate also has some good points about 9mm. It isn't always as effective as a larger caliber however with practice you can put two in the chest and one in the dome before many people get off their first shot.

What I have found is that the more I practice the more confident I get. Gives me a warm feeling. I don't ever want to take a human life but if I have to I want to make certain I am the last left standing.

Home protection...you can't beat a shotty.

I like my Ruger Security Six for the reasons Nate described namely it shoots 38 wad cutters for practice as well as hollow point 357 loads for the crackhead down the street.

The main thing is practice until you don't notice the recoil and have the ability to identify and engage targets quickly and effectively with whatever weapon you choose.

Good luck
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Jamie-R   11/14/08 5:09 PM
GeorgeS is still my homeboy.
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Alex   11/14/08 5:16 PM

| Ian.yclept: 11/14/08 3:09 PM
{{{"

something_feral: 11/14/08 2:56 PM
{{{"

Get a rifle in addition to a side-arm... A FAL manufactured from DS Arms or M1A from Springfield Armory (or LRB Arms if you can afford it), in my opinion.}}}



I was just going to say that. The 2nd Amendment is/was an authorization to keep an armed militia - war guns, not self-defense guns. No militia would be worth a whole lot shooting just government-licensed hand-guns.}}}



I like Nates' .357 and also that .38 S&W mentioned (b/c its smaller). I have small hands.

Question: which is better for me (price please and ammo prices?)
how can I get one unregistered so they dont juts take it away?

I figure the way Odie keeps mnetioning that he supports the 2nd for legal hunting that he plans to stop handguns. Seriously, handguns, probably semis.

Anyway, which gun and how much and how to buy? .357 or .38 S&W? |

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Alex   11/14/08 5:18 PM
Oh wait, should I get a rifle (and a hunting license) in case they try to take away handguns?

I bet they track you through the hunitng licenses and if you dont have one, theyll take your rifle too.

Bidges.
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Jamie-R   11/14/08 5:21 PM
Oi Vox can you get - if it is - EP to stop referencing me to Saint Paul as a homosexual? I mean delete my drunken reverlry I mean SB then fine, but don't let that s**t stand then, it's a shot at me, Paul Loves Jamie? Give me a break. EP is as much a psycho as Star Trek loser is.
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Anon   11/14/08 5:21 PM
"Pussy" liberal reporting in.
I'm a Ron Paul convert btw if anyone was curious as to how my mind had been changed. ;-)

According to the responses I take it a ".40 magnum" is incorrect terminology to pair the two together.

I actually have very large hands for my size. I'm only 5'9 but I sport a size 13 shoe to give you an idea of my oddly shaped bone structure. Then maybe a sub-compact isn't for me?

At any rate thanks for all the suggestions...you ppl sure know & love yer gunz.
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JACIII   11/14/08 5:27 PM
Go for a 3.5" to 4" stainless .357 to learn on. The sight plane is long enough to keep you from becoming discouraged and the barrel weight is nice for when you want to graduate to full power .357 rounds. Damned near everybody makes a good one, but play with a friends first to pin down a brand and model you know works. If you can find a good old Security Six you'll be in clover.

Feed it a steady diet of .38 Special while becoming accustomed to the bang and recoil. Shoot in single action mode initially until you get good results, then shoot it in double action mode; it will suck but this will teach you trigger control for when you go to a much more suitable combat firearm.

Make sure you can live with the stiff and notchy action even the good examples have before you buy it. Practically nobody knows the fine art of tuning a DA revolver anymore and it is a complex mechanism that is easily screwed up to the point of becoming dangerous.

There are safety checks to make ensuring your gun is timed properly, locks up correctly, and the internal safeties are functioning. Google it.

Safety advice: Don't shoot yourself or others. Accidentally. Don't allow someone else to shoot themselves, you, or others with your gun.
Quote
Jamie-R   11/14/08 5:31 PM
Whitey MC. Beyond the crap. Hopefully.

More spirits being worried why is that it's for them like the Indian curry, does our culture have to lose? Do we have soemthing to lose? A crooked Aussie and for me to proceed with the deed my founders seed and risk take heed? What, so what, I know my Kingdom is not of this world, but still so what I hurled.
Last edited by Jamie-R at 11/14/08 5:33 PMQuote
Enoch Powell   11/14/08 5:32 PM
For home defense, a big bullet is all the rage. If you shoot on any kind of a regular basis, you will not have a problem. That doesn't mean the gun itself has to be massive. You might want to carry it concealed occasionally. There are lots of nice .45 ACP models out there. That's what I like.

If you're going to carry one around all the time, it has to be small enough to be perfectly concealed no matter what you are wearing. I wish I could openly carry a little submachine gun around like the Italian Carabinieri do, but as it is I have a .32 ACP Beretta Tomcat. It holds eight if there's one in the chamber and it's about the size of a pack of cigarettes. I realize this is a relative pea shooter, but it slips in any pocket and I've always figured eight to the head would discourage even the most lively and vibrant criminals. After all, several generations of musicians, drug dealers and devoted backdoor men were perfectly happy minimizing the consequences of their actions with an Iver Johnson .32-20.

Buy two or three different guns. Go to the shooting range. Meet like-minded people. Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst. Don't worry. It will be great. Whatever you get will be better than running away or begging for mercy.
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something_feral   11/14/08 5:32 PM

| Alex: 11/14/08 5:18 PM
{{{"

Oh wait, should I get a rifle (and a hunting license) in case they try to take away handguns?

I bet they track you through the hunitng licenses and if you dont have one, theyll take your rifle too.

Bidges.}}}



Get a rifle, regardless of the status of your side-arm.

Also, they do not issue licenses for the varmints that you are worried about. |

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Jamie-R   11/14/08 5:35 PM
Bitches don't know bout Enoch Powell.
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EN   11/14/08 5:39 PM

| Anon: 11/14/08 5:21 PM
{{{"

you ppl sure know & love yer gunz.}}}



Better to use a tool then be one. |

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EN   11/14/08 5:41 PM

| Jamie-R: 11/14/08 5:35 PM
{{{"

Bitches don't know bout Enoch Powell.}}}



Wasn't he some public school Pom who used the cricket bat for "initiation" purposes? |

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Alex   11/14/08 5:51 PM

| Nate: 11/14/08 3:49 PM
{{{"

ya know how much off topic commenting Vox could prevent if he put a post like this up every couple days?}}}




Shiner Bock!

There. I just took care of the other OT topic for a few days. We should be good 2 go. |

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Alex   11/14/08 5:54 PM

| something_feral: 11/14/08 5:32 PM
{{{"



Get a rifle, regardless of the status of your side-arm.

Also, they do not issue licenses for the varmints that you are worried about.}}}




Is it possible, in some areas of the country, if one was inclined to *not* register his gun, to purchase one without going downtown?

Or is that too sketch even for the Ilk? I honestly dont know.

Gun shows? Craigslist? |

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Nate   11/14/08 5:54 PM
For the record... I did not follow my own advice.

My first gun was a Taurus PT-101. It can be carried cocked and locked... and it has a decocker. Or you can simply use it DA.

The weapon has adjustible sites and is a .40.

Its a big gun. If things get close... you could really bust someone's head with it. In fact.. were it a 9mm.. I'm convinced you rather be gut shot with it... than hit in the face with it.

Its a full sized duty weapon.

I recomend it to anyone and everyone.
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Nate   11/14/08 5:55 PM
Alex,
What state do you live in?

Very few states have mandatory registration.
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Alex   11/14/08 5:55 PM

| EN: 11/14/08 5:39 PM
{{{"

Anon: 11/14/08 5:21 PM
{{{"

you ppl sure know & love yer gunz.}}}



Better to use a tool then be one.}}}




Yeah i noticed that right off. They're scared. Heh. |

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Nate   11/14/08 5:57 PM
Jamie... Austrailian for Bitch.
Quote
PaulLovesJamie   11/14/08 6:00 PM

| Jamie-R: 11/14/08 5:21 PM
{{{"

Oi Vox can you get - if it is - EP to stop referencing me to Saint Paul as a homosexual?}}}


I am Paul, my wife is Jamie, dont know anybody named EP. sorry, the world doesnt revolve around you. |

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Huckleberry   11/14/08 6:01 PM

| PaulLovesJamie: 11/14/08 6:00 PM
{{{"

Jamie-R: 11/14/08 5:21 PM
{{{"

Oi Vox can you get - if it is - EP to stop referencing me to Saint Paul as a homosexual?}}}


I am Paul, my wife is Jamie, dont know anybody named EP. sorry, the world doesnt revolve around you.}}}


You're new here, huh? |

Quote
Anon   11/14/08 6:02 PM

| Nate: 11/14/08 5:55 PM
{{{"

Alex,
What state do you live in?

Very few states have mandatory registration.}}}



MN for me. |

Quote
Nate   11/14/08 6:06 PM
Anon
You don't need a license to buy or carry rifles or shotguns. You don't need to register them either.

I do believe you need a license to buy a handgun, but you do not have any kind of registration. That's off the top of my head.

Far stricter than what we have in the south.
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Parrothead Al   11/14/08 6:07 PM
Recent ammo prices:

Wal-mart
357 JHP 110 gr (50) $27.34
38 JHP 125 gr (50) $18.97
9 mm FMJ 115 gr (100) $19.49

Academy
9 mm FMJ 115 gr (50) $11.49

Most prices are up 50 to 100% in last 3 years. Stock up while you can.
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maniacprovost   11/14/08 6:09 PM

| Anon: 11/14/08 5:21 PM
{{{"

I'm a Ron Paul convert btw if anyone was curious as to how my mind had been changed. }}}



I'm always amazed by Democrats who are in favor of guns, liberty, and reasonable spending. It's a problem I'm still trying to comprehend. |

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Jamie-R   11/14/08 6:10 PM
There's Nate!

I thought the blacks had hung him!
Quote
Jamie-R   11/14/08 6:11 PM

| PaulLovesJamie: 11/14/08 6:00 PM
{{{"

Jamie-R: 11/14/08 5:21 PM
{{{"

Oi Vox can you get - if it is - EP to stop referencing me to Saint Paul as a homosexual?}}}


I am Paul, my wife is Jamie, dont know anybody named EP. sorry, the world doesnt revolve around you.}}}



Yeah just a coincidence hey motherf***er? |

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Jamie-R   11/14/08 6:14 PM
Paul Loves Jamie. David Loves Vox. Peter Loves Nate.

You're a faggot.
Quote
Nate   11/14/08 6:17 PM
Jamie Loves Peter.
Quote
Jamie-R   11/14/08 6:22 PM
Nate Loves Josh.
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Nate   11/14/08 6:22 PM
Jamie has shmegma breath.
Quote
Jamie-R   11/14/08 6:24 PM
See it's cool when you guys do it, but when it's some psycho faggot, well....

That's when Aussies get a bit, kangaroo tick like.

Get a knife and dig it out your arm if you get one, if you take a piss in the outback and you get a kangaroo tick, cut yourself and get it out.
Quote
Jamie-R   11/14/08 6:25 PM
Can't I'm circumcised unlike you dirty foreskin redneck.
Quote
Dread451   11/14/08 6:46 PM
I figured you could help a “former” pussy liberal who finally woke up...

While we have former "pussified" liberals asking advice about guns, we conversely have "pussified" USMC base commanders banning offensive bumper stickers, discerning declared enemies on base admitted vehicles.

Condemning Islamic terrorism banned on Marine training base

The "fomenting of anger" continues unabated. Where is all this going to end? I agree, should the Marines now be forced to remove "to the Shores of Tripoli," from their classic hymn? How is that any different from expressing one's pleasure at defeating an Islamic combatant on a bumper sticker, or other public displayed media? People, we are seeing the full effect of the feminization of our military. Prepare for Clinton and Carter on steroids. Then again, the full activation of women into the regular Marine Corps began in 1948. This only set the stage, (as the other forces) for Tailhook in 1991. Welcome to the new world -- Neo...
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Orville   11/14/08 6:55 PM
A Taurus PT 1911 is a good value, and to save on ammo add a Ciener 22 conversion kit and you can plink away with cheap .22 ammo and get yer gun skilz down. The kit by the way replaces the barrel/slide assembly from a .45 cal to a .22 cal and includes a magazine to hold .22 ammo.

I paid about $600 new for the gun and a little over $300 for the conversion kit, but it pays for itself in ammo costs in a year or less depending on how often you practice.
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Prescient-poet   11/14/08 6:58 PM
I agree with Nate, Start with a Taurus 357 revolver. Plink with 38 special wad cutters.
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WaterBoy   11/14/08 7:00 PM

| Alex: 11/14/08 5:18 PM
{{{"

he supports the 2nd for legal hunting}}}



Yeah, you can shoot it but you better not eat it... |

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Beelzebub   11/14/08 7:00 PM

figured you could help a “former” pussy liberal who finally woke up...


How about taking a tiny portion of the money that's going to be required to buy a gun and invest in a gym membership you fat piece of lard. It'll do wonders for your mental security as well.
Quote
Way-farerTed   11/14/08 7:06 PM

| Nate: 11/14/08 2:32 PM
{{{"

***sigh***

First and foremost... .40 is about to remove anyone's head.. and there is no such thing as a .40 magnum.

A 9mm is not a powerful enough weapon to reliably stop a full grown adult male.

First gun...

Wheel gun in .357 mag. practice with .38 wad cutters. cheap... low recoil. I strongly recommend a taurus total titium. Pay attention to the ones with the ribbed grips. Ribbed for your pleasure and hers. Trust me.

When you're comfy and ready to move to a semi... get it in .40.}}}


This is the advice to take.
And even if you do upgrade to a .40 auto for c-c, keep the revolver: They don't jam.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Nate, but won't those fire 9mm also? I seem to recall a lot of scuttlebut about these parts on 9mm, .38 and interchangeability. |

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hoosiertoo   11/14/08 7:06 PM
My 1st handgun, besides the military issued M1911A1, was a S&W .357. Fired lots of .38 rounds through it.

Unlike the majority around here, I currently carry a 5 shot .38 Rossi. I've got lots of miles on it and it performs well, plus I can carry it in a sweatshirt pocket. I've also carried a Beretta .22 LR for the same ease of concealment.

Most any time you'll need a handgun you'll be in close quarters; a pocket offers little enough impediment if you're in a hurry. Plus, you can walk around with your hands in your pockets and nobody knows.

The S&W sure is fun to shoot, though.
Quote
undertow   11/14/08 7:11 PM
Different guns, different people, different dynamics. If you've got a shooting range close by I'd recommend getting several rental guns and trying them out. The 40S&W is the lowest caliber I'd recommend for personnel defense. The 9mm is a good plinking gun and with the right load can stop someone but not as effectively as the 40. And pick up a Remington 870 to go along with your pistol.
Last edited by undertow at 11/14/08 7:14 PMQuote
Mikesbo   11/14/08 7:17 PM
Not to set off the opinionated, but if you're set on 9mm (NATO calibres are likely to be the most abundant WTSHTF), you can go with +P defense rounds for more power, and while the XD is good, if you're interested in concealment, you might look at the Kahr PM-9 (composite) or MK-9 (steel). I don't think anyone has suggested those yet.

I hesitate to mention in this crowd, but there is also the Kel-Tec PF-9 and Walther PPS in the single-stack concealed carry mix. Not as good as the Kahr (I don't know about the Walther, though, it might be), but worth considering. I like the MK-9, even though it is heavier.

Any gun is better than none, if you can trust it to work when you need it to.
Quote
Dread451   11/14/08 7:18 PM

| I qualified expert with the M1911A1. Stick with .45 ACP, and .40 calibers...

In more concerning news..

new dollar, new euro, and a new pan-Asian currency coming?

I do believe, that we have the precursor to the Phoenix, if not the Phoenix, dear people. Just like the 1988 Economist states...
{{{"


The phoenix zone would impose tight constraints on national governments. There would be no such thing, for instance, as a national monetary policy. The world phoenix supply would be fixed by a new central bank, descended perhaps from the IMF.
}}}


According to Edelson...
{{{"


The International Monetary Fund (IMF) would implement the new financial system in conjunction with central banks and governments around the world...

A new fixed-rate currency regime. Immediately upon upping the price of gold and introducing the new currencies, a new fixed exchange rate system would be re-introduced. The floating exchange rate system would be tossed into the dust bin along with the old currencies.

This would kill any speculation about further devaluations in the currency markets, and drastically reduce market volatility.
}}}


People, we are about there. We are going to be witnesses to history over the weekend...

|

Last edited by Dread451 at 11/14/08 7:37 PMQuote
Alex   11/14/08 7:18 PM

| Nate: 11/14/08 5:55 PM
{{{"

Alex,
What state do you live in?

Very few states have mandatory registration.}}}




Georgia, by God |

Quote
John Mosby   11/14/08 7:19 PM
Plastic guns (Glock ) are pure crap.
My old WWI Colt 1911 works fine. And it's had a helluva lot of ammo run through it. I bougt it for 50 bucks 30 years ago.
The wife got her a new Sig XO in Stainless , That's a sweet gun, that one. I might just confiscate it.
. 45, put 'em down, keep 'em down.
Quote
hoosiertoo   11/14/08 7:23 PM
Oh, and for home defense, think about a .410.

Compact, easy to handle and not too awkward for the wife.
Quote
JACIII   11/14/08 7:24 PM
4 inch .357 with .38 wadcutters: It's what my 11yr old daughter shoots, ergo it should be about right for a reforming libtard.
Quote
Nate   11/14/08 7:38 PM
And for all you Glock 9 boys...

You know my wife carries a Glock to..

Of course her's is a .45.
Quote
Nate   11/14/08 7:39 PM
Ted
9mm and .38spl aren't so much interchangeable as they are ballisticly identical. Ok.. not identical... but dadgummed near.
Quote
Nate   11/14/08 7:40 PM
Alex,
Georgia has no mandatory registration of any kind. By at a gun show.
Quote
Prescient-poet   11/14/08 7:40 PM
JacIII

Have you tried the Buffalo loads yet, I bought a box to try out in my 357. Have you or anyone else tried them?

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=946487
Quote
Prescient-poet   11/14/08 7:43 PM
Wrong page, I bought the 158 gr Jacketed HP's
Quote
Way-farerTed   11/14/08 7:43 PM
Dread,
That's mostly sales pitch.
Buffet and the BigWigs have been talking about a gold-based international monetary unit for years, but I wouldn't expect a lot to come of it due to the extreme resistance of Burn-the-bank-e and the rest of the dollar-destroyers here at home who are all about the greenback and its manipulability.
Locking in to a global currency would f*** all that up.
Quote
Prescient-poet   11/14/08 7:46 PM

| Nate: 11/14/08 7:39 PM
{{{"

Ted
9mm and .38spl aren't so much interchangeable as they are ballisticly identical. Ok.. not identical... but dadgummed near.}}}



Semi auto 9mm will not chamber properly in a revolver. Nates right. |

Quote
Dread451   11/14/08 8:12 PM

| Way-farerTed: 11/14/08 7:43 PM
{{{"

Dread,
That's mostly sales pitch.
Buffet and the BigWigs have been talking about a gold-based international monetary unit for years, but I wouldn't expect a lot to come of it due to the extreme resistance of Burn-the-bank-e and the rest of the dollar-destroyers here at home who are all about the greenback and its manipulability.
Locking in to a global currency would f*** all that up.}}}


If read the article, it's not strictly about a gold standard. We'll see what comes of this weekend... |

Quote
O.C.   11/14/08 8:19 PM
Every few years Ruger reissues the Blackhawk in .357/9mm. It ships with two cylinders, one chambered for .357/.38 and the other for 9mm Para. The .357/.38 cartridges headspace on the rim, which is why you can use either the .38 or the 1/10th inch longer .357 in the same chamber. The 9mm headspaces on the cartridge mouth, which is why you need to have a special cylinder with chambers cut to 9mm dimensions, but can push the bullet down the same barrel. This is also why you can't use cartridges like 9mm Kurz or 9mm Largo in a gun chambered for 9mm Parabellum.

Ruger also periodically reissues the Blackhawk in .45 Long Colt/.45 ACP. Same deal. Requires two separate cylinders.

Smith & Wesson for awhile was making a 2" snubby in 9mm, but it had to use moon clips, much like the Colt 1917. And there have been a few companies over the years that have made semi-autos in .357 -- Coonan, Desert Eagle, a few others I could think of if I tried hard -- but those are pretty rare.
Quote
O.C.   11/14/08 8:21 PM
By the way, in quite a few countries it is illegal for civilians to possess 9mm Parabellum ammo, precisely because it *is* military standard issue. Hence the popularity of cartridges like 9mm Largo, etc.
Quote
O.C.   11/14/08 8:23 PM
Sigh. Threads like this just aren't any fun anymore without Bane.
Quote
Prescient-poet   11/14/08 8:24 PM
OC

I'm impressed, thought you were a a gun pussy. Don't judge a book by its cover. Ha! I cliched you again.
Quote
Prescient-poet   11/14/08 8:26 PM
Made me think of something funny to me.

Now go away or I shall cliche you a second time.
Quote
Salt   11/14/08 8:33 PM
For a newbie, Nate's first comment is spot on. A Taurus, Colt, S&W,,, no matter.
Quote
O.C.   11/14/08 8:34 PM
You may be prescient, but you can't read. Go look at the inside *back* cover of Rebel Moon. If you don't have a copy, email your address and I'll send you one.
Quote
Anon   11/14/08 8:38 PM

| maniacprovost: 11/14/08 6:09 PM
{{{"


I'm always amazed by Democrats who are in favor of guns, liberty, and reasonable spending. It's a problem I'm still trying to comprehend.}}}



I see the value in the 2nd amendment now because we need to keep neocons in line.

Liberty is something I never disliked. What confuses me are religious conservatives who praise Prop 8 passing. How can one be an advocate for freedom and the constitution while wanting to limit someone elses freedom? Gays like to declare their love for putting it in each others poopy holes. Just let 'em and get bored with it already.

And reasonable spending is something everyone should like. It was Mondale who warned us about the national debt getting out of control...but the country chose Reagan and he decided to triple the debt. (Not that Mondale would not have done the same)

When Ron Paul said "even Reagan was a failure in many ways" on Meet the Press, I thought that took huge balls. He says things that might be unpopular to say and he doesn't care. Respect.

I discovered that there actually are decent Republicans out there thru him. I used to vote because I hated neocons...but now I see no difference. |

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Nate   11/14/08 8:40 PM
who would anyone assume O.C. is ignorant of firearms? I mean yeah... he's got a mad dork quotient... but so what? So does VD.
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Nate   11/14/08 8:44 PM
Reagan was a huge failure. The way so many so-called conservatives ride his jock makes me ill. Its not on the same level... but it is kin to the way republicans love to hang on the balls of the Tyrant King. Lincoln was a Republican! Never mind that his idiotic policies set the stage for every abuse of power of the 19th century... sweep that under the rug. He was on our team! So he was Awesome!

Idiots.

Its like the democrats fetishizing JFK... who would be a republican if he were alive today. I mean... look at his policy. He would've kicked John Kerry's ass and called him a fruit cake commie loving hippy.
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Nate   11/14/08 8:50 PM
"I see the value in the 2nd amendment now because we need to keep neocons in line."

Good Lord. Yeah.. because those whacky democrats never talk about crazy things like... I dunno... forced conscription into a federal police force... that would just be... crazy!
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O.C.   11/14/08 8:52 PM
Just to establish my mad dork cred:

Some photos from our 4th Annual Frozen Chosin Match

I'm stepping down after eight terms on the OGC Board of Directors, but Nate, if you ever get up this way, let me know. We'll get you out to the club for some noisy fun.
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Anon   11/14/08 8:57 PM

| Nate: 11/14/08 8:50 PM
{{{"

"I see the value in the 2nd amendment now because we need to keep neocons in line."

Good Lord. Yeah.. because those whacky democrats never talk about crazy things like... I dunno... forced conscription into a federal police force... that would just be... crazy!}}}



neocons = republicans

neocons = democrats

I use it universally because neoliberal sounds kinda stupid. |

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Nate   11/14/08 9:01 PM
OC... some of the biggest dorks I've ever met have been shooters. Embrace it. Hell.. JAC and I have been known to show up at the range with enough electronics to make folks think we were looking for a science fair. Chronographs... handloading equipment... laptops... digital scales and thermometers...

All to see how small we can make that group.
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Anon   11/14/08 9:02 PM

| Nate: 11/14/08 8:44 PM
{{{"

Reagan was a huge failure. The way so many so-called conservatives ride his jock makes me ill. Its not on the same level... but it is kin to the way republicans love to hang on the balls of the Tyrant King. Lincoln was a Republican! Never mind that his idiotic policies set the stage for every abuse of power of the 19th century... sweep that under the rug. He was on our team! So he was Awesome!

Idiots.

Its like the democrats fetishizing JFK... who would be a republican if he were alive today. I mean... look at his policy. He would've kicked John Kerry's ass and called him a fruit cake commie loving hippy.}}}



Sort of reminds me of something I've been wanting to get off my chest and bring it back to recent times. Why so much love for Palin?

I threw up in my mouth when she said the Iraq war was a task from god.

She admits she has no other flag in her office other than Israel. What an AIPAC whore.

I think I have valid dislike for her unlike my democrat friends who voted for Obama while I did not. |

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Nate   11/14/08 9:06 PM
Palin is anything but a Neocon. She's just a con. That's bad. But its greatly preferable to the New York City / Washington DC brand of Republicrat that seeks nothing but Empire.
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Agent Provocateur   11/14/08 9:29 PM
Anything you’d recommend? I’m leaning towards a sub-compact because I like the element of surprise. I’m looking at this…

Yea, you should be looking at this instead. And it should be your backup weapon when SHTF ... or in-home defense.

Get yourself a Glock 9X19 (9MM) to start. You can pick them up reasonably cheap used. I have a nice Law Enforcement model I picked up used. Take it home and read the book. Then read it again. And again. Before you put a bullet in the magazine, learn how to take it apart. Take it apart and put it back together again. Do this until you can do it without having to "think" about it. Do you know anyone who is an expert marksmen? If not, join a gun club. Ask your gun dealer if they know anyone who gives combat pistol training.

The first time you fire your weapon, you are going to be taken by surprise at the kick. Get over it. It is going to kick. Start at 25 feet with a 12X12 paper target. When you can shoot that consistently center mass, move to 50 feet. When you can hit that target consistently ... put up two targets at 25 feet 5 to 6 feet apart side by side. Now shoot the first target then the next. Do that repeatedly until you can shoot both target in 2 seconds or less. Then go to three targets and progress.

When you have mastered that ... start using balloons. 5 of them at 25 feet 5 to 6 feet apart. Those balloons represent heads. Practice speed shooting all those balloons. When you have mastered that ... go to 50 feet.

Now go buy your 45. And repeat.

Now, if you are getting really into it, find a combat pistol club in your area.

As I said, the pistol is you backup weapon. You really don't want to kiss your adversaries while shooting them unless you have to. On the same website above, you will find the M1A. Don't get a used one. Get one right out of the box. And they are expensive. Repeat the above but start at 100 yards and work your way to 300 yards. Are you having fun yet? Buy a scope. Leupold or 3rd generation Springfield Armory Sniper Scope. Get the book: The Ultimate Sniper by Maj. John L. Plaster. There are six left on Amazon Books (I see people have been buying them). Read the book and put it into practice and ... practice. 100 yards. 200. 300. 400. 500. 600 yards ... 800 yards?

Now, all this is not the same as actually shooting someone. After years of being a "former pussy liberal" it is probably going to be even harder to shoot ... kill ... someone if you should have to. You have to make up your mind now ... not then.

Mental imagery will help. And you need to get over the idea that no one deserves to have their head explode.
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Nate   11/14/08 9:46 PM
Hrm... I don't advise you to take AP advice. The plain truth is... the average individual is not capable of mastering a handgun to the level he describes. They simply will not put the time in.

Besides... head shots at 50 feet get you thrown in jail. Hell.. anything at 50 feet gets you thrown in jail.

I can hit a beer can at 100 yards with a makarov... but I don't expect everyone to be able to.

Also... you don't need to practice with a 9mm. Your back up for your .45 should be a .45.

If my wife can practice with her .45.... why can't you?

Awww... does it hurt your wittle hands??? awww...

Suck it up.
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Agent Provocateur   11/14/08 10:00 PM

| Nate: 11/14/08 9:46 PM
{{{"

Suck it up.}}}



It has nothing to do with you and yours being macho Nate.

And no, your 45 should be your back up to your combat rifle.

And if you can not hit 5 balloons in 6 to 7 seconds at fifty feet ... well, there is always pray and spray ... which will more than likely get you killed. And if all you got is pray and spray ... buy a shotgun and use bird shot.

If I hurt your feelings Nate ... well ... who cares. |

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Mikesbo   11/14/08 10:09 PM

| Prescient-poet: 11/14/08 7:46 PM
{{{"

Nate: 11/14/08 7:39 PM
Semi auto 9mm will not chamber properly in a revolver. Nates right.}}}



Ruger's Blackhawk Convertible (SA) has exchangeable cylinders between .357 and 9x19.

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAFamily?type=Revolver&subtype=Single%20Action&famlst=19&variation=Blued |

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NateM   11/14/08 10:11 PM
Personally i'm partial to the HK pistols, but that just just my preference. The USP Compact is solid choice, available chambered in .40 S&W or .45 Auto. The P2000SK is available in .40 S&W and .357 SIG. I own the p2000 (the SKs larger cousin) and the .40 has negligible recoil. The SK is small enough to conceal pretty easily, as is the Compact, and HK tends to make a pretty good weapon, i've never had any problem with mine, and i've put a fair few rounds through it. Of course if you aren't one for subtlety then this might be for you: http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAFamily?type=Revolver&subtype=Single%20Action&famlst=57. In a pinch nothing beats a .45 colt to put some holes into someone.
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Dread451   11/14/08 10:25 PM

| Speaking of the 2nd Amendment, and what may come it very soon, consider this. What if Congress decides to install Obama via resolution to be POTUS?

Crazy?

Just to keep you informed, Berg's "petition for an injunction to stay the November 4th election was denied." However...
{{{"

...the Clerk also required the defendants to respond to the Writ of Certiorari (which requires the concurrence of 4 Justices) by December 1, 2008. At that time, Obama must present to the Court an authentic birth certificate, after which Mr. Berg will respond.

If Obama fails to do that, it is sure to inspire the skepticism of the Justices, who are unaccustomed to being defied. They will have to decide what to do about a president-elect who refuses to prove his natural-born citizenship.}}}


If the democratic controlled Congress decides to use and fashion a "follow-up" resolution to S. Res. 511, in order to ensure an Obama presidency, then what kind of future do you think there will be for 2nd Amendment? All it will take is a congressional resolution, following some sort of "false flag" involving "right wing" militias using assault weapons... |

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Agent Provocateur   11/14/08 10:36 PM
Besides... head shots at 50 feet get you thrown in jail. Hell.. anything at 50 feet gets you thrown in jail. - Nate

Not in a SHTF combat situation. Is that not what the man was talking about?

And I'd really like to see you take your makarov, place 10 beer cans at 100 yards and hit them all in 10 seconds ... okay ... 20 seconds ... alright, 30 seconds. ! minute? One shot per can? 2?

You know your guns Nate. Everything else is bullshit.
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Beau   11/14/08 11:44 PM
OT for Promethus:

Abortionist who killed 48,000 over 26 years now pro-life activist.
Last edited by Beau at 11/15/08 2:08 AMQuote  Edit  Delete
Jamie-R   11/15/08 12:11 AM

| Nate: 11/14/08 8:44 PM
{{{"

Reagan was a huge failure. }}}



LOOK NATE'S SPEAKING GATHER ROUND. |

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Jamie-R   11/15/08 12:14 AM

| Nate: 11/14/08 9:46 PM
{{{"

Suck it up.}}}



SERMON ON THE PICK UP TRUCK. |

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Jamie-R   11/15/08 12:29 AM
Whitey MC. TGI Saturday.

An oldie, but a goodie.

Kicking it for your amusement, except the psychos and YANKEE NATE.

Keepin' it real, as wiggers do.

Ain't it funny, a wanker's destiny, to write this rhyme and post it after suggested to me (By GeorgeS), I won't hit the road I know how heavy this load! Cause I'm carrying Nate's gun thread, not only will he shoot you dead but he'll flex biceps when he hops into bed (After Mary Poppins on DVD), I never thought anyone can cop the rules to my flame, that's why Josh wouldn't front to my game, now I'm on my way coming back to stay, it takes some time and I'm here for you to find (That's for you Josh), you will see a whole new TGI situation I won't be so mislead, by Nate driving the moto'bike with Penguins from Mary Poppins in stead!
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superninja   11/15/08 1:58 AM
So what is a good gun for hunting?

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